Indians: Argumentative versus Opinionated

There are different categories of people in Indian society. These categories I am talking about have got nothing to do with categories or groups that fall under the head - sociological but it is purely psychological. Sociological/Social groups are for example caste groups, religious groups and others. At least arguments or debates with such groups will be blunt and clear as the one who argues with them knows in advance what their stand is on a specific subject, and the possibility of obfuscation is minimal or none.

I shall explain these groups/categories in terms which we can easily understand and relate.

Category 1: Those who say that India is a pathetic country. Every invader who came here for pillage & plunder has helped us improve from being a highly pathetic society to a less pathetic one. Let’s see some clichés which people use who fall under this category.

• Thank god, Greeks invaded and enslaved us. Because of which we have learnt logic. Otherwise we would have been stupid.

• You know, if Mughals did not invade us we would have never learnt how to make Chicken Tikka & Kebab. So I salute Mughals.

• Thanks to Brits, we now have post offices, Railways, bridges & high-rise buildings. Most importantly they taught us English along with morals and a great religion through missionaries. Otherwise we would have been a bunch of idiots worshipping rocks, monkeys and idols. Thanks to Lord, they have given us Jesus. 

Category 2: Those who say that India is a best country in the world, and there is nothing wrong here and they say India is shining. There will be no need for any clichés because for them nothing is wrong with our society. These people will normally will hold their allegiance to a political party. For example, when BJP is in power, if you speak to a hard core BJP supporter he will say that “India is shining” and there is nothing wrong with India because all is well. When Congress is in power if you talk to a hard core congress party supporter, he will say that India has become a super power and all other parties are communal, we are the only secular party in India etc.,

Category 3: Though I am tempted to call this category as neutral, rational and objective, but they are not completely rational. Because Humans will never be completely rational. There is nothing called as rationality, but bounded rationality, says Herbert Simon, Nobel Prize winning Economist. Read his paper here  to understand as to what is Bounded Rationality. So, though in a way people who fall in this category are relatively better than the two categories mentioned above, they are not completely neutral. Because they will have a soft corner to a particular party or ideology, even though they don’t agree with them completely. Let’s take my example I have a soft corner for BJP at the moment when compared to the positions of other parties on subjects like national security etc., I go along with BJP but not on everything, but still have a soft corner. If not on all the occasions most of the times discussions will be driven by facts rather than by unsubstantiated opinions & obscurantism. 

In this occasion I will be my own judge and say that I fall under this category3. Because for most of the opinions I rely on facts. If I say that both LTTE & Sri Lankan establishment are equally responsible for the sufferings of Tamils, I will cite at least few facts to support my argument, instead of making claims out of my hat. If a person who falls under the category1 have to speak on this issue, he will blame either Sri Lanka or LTTE as fully responsible with least regard to facts but not both. LTTE sympathizer might just say that Prabhakaran was a freedom fighter notwithstanding the atrocities for which he was responsible, and a Srilankan supporter would just dismiss him as a terrorist. Truth may be in between? So, I claim that I fall under category3. Jury is out.

In my opinion we’ll be tempted to debate with people who fall under category1, because we fall in to the trap as we feel that they are sane and at first impression appear to be category3, but actually you can reason it out with category2 not with category1.

Let’s me quote few types of people who fall under category1. Most of the people who have secured a good social status through reservation, yes I am talking about a group which was institutionally oppressed i.e., Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe group. For our discussion here I am referring only to those who fall under the definition of category1, not all.

The reason for undertaking this painful exercise to explain the categories is to explain and share my experience of a conversation I have had with a person who falls under category1. Yes, the type who says that we are better off today only because of British. What appalled me was his reluctance to accept facts contrary to his beliefs and passes judgment only based on his experience. I sympathize for the sufferings he might have undergone, but his personal suffering is not enough to pass a judgement on a whole society which is saner, civil and forward looking, at least on a relative basis.

Let me briefly explain the profile of the person with whom I have had such a conversation. He is a Professor and Head of the department in a reputed university and claims to be teaching for the past 30 years or more. He is about to retire say in a year. An SC/ST who reached where he is now partly because of the policy of reservation or quota system. He is bustling with his prejudice towards Caste Brahmins. Of course he claims to be a victim of caste Brahmin bigotry. Normally he does not take pride in anything good about in India, even on our achievements, past & present. Everything that has gone wrong with this country he sees it through the prism of Caste Brahmins oppressing SC/ST groups.

The conversation started with his prejudicial statements that in those days Brahmins would pour melted copper in the ears of Dalits if they dared to study or educate themselves. For a very long time I have tried to find an evidence on this claim as this was not the first time I have heard such a statement, but I could not find any convincing evidence so far. Even if we have to agree with that statement for a moment, is this what India all about?

Without answering that question directly, I brought up the issue regarding the documentary made by BBC on 2012 Delhi gang rape case and the innuendos suggested in that documentary. I told him that, while rapes are bad and it happens in India too but neither all men are rapists or ours is a society of rapists as suggested by that documentary and tried to convince him that his example was also something like that. And apprised him with facts that the incidence of rape is much higher in western countries when compared to India. As per the official figures, every 25 seconds one woman is sexually harassed in US and in every 6 minutes one woman is sexually harassed in UK, by that I don’t mean that we are better off. Even if it is going to be one rape, we are ashamed of it as a society. But that one rape does not define our identity.

I further added that I have completely agreed with him on the question of discrimination of Dalits primarily by caste Brahmins and conversation is sealed as we have no differences on this subject.

But he was not convinced and went on and said that it is only because of British we are here not otherwise. Then came his clichés which I have explained in the introduction about the people who fall under category will normally use, that he is thankful to British for railways and buildings etc.,

I replied that I disagree with him on this and argued that he should read and understand the theories of Brain and Economic drain. The whole budget of England was based on the resources looted from India, such was the amount of limitless resources she had. Not long ago during Vijayanagara Empire Rayala seema (plains of stones) in Andhra Pradesh was called as Rathanala Seema (plains of diamond). Every piece of visible wealth was taken away from here. In 2000 years of recorded history (read Madison project) India was an economic power house for 17 centuries in a straight contributing towards nearly 30 % of global GDP consistently, only as a result of systematic exploitation of British we came down to 1% at the start of 20^th century. Without British we could have been better off. Though the Chinese were colonized by the British the Chinese never say that they are grateful to their colonizers. Why is it in India we have people praise British for what they have done? The answer is we are psychologically still slaves and we need to break these chains of slavery.

By now he is completely lost his posture and shot back that in China there was no caste oppression. I was getting bored by now, as he clearly lacked intellectual depth in his argument and completely handicapped by his casual opinions which is the result of hearsay & anecdotal evidence.

I humbly retorted “Sire, do you know nearly 33 million innocent people were killed in China during the Cultural Revolution! Doesn't that count as oppression to you? He replied, “No that is different”.

I don’t want to elaborate here on every thing we have discussed but only few important ones. Few things he said about Christian missionaries and their assistance to us. He declared that we are stone worshippers and not wise people etc and Christian Missionaries have helped us. I replied that if a religion or ideology has to be evaluated and a judgement needs to be passed we need to consider its history. A woman was not even treated as human being but slave and how the church persecuted scientists is an open secret, some were burnt alive just because they went against church, and you should really have credentials to preach. But in India Science & religion complimented each other, they were never at war with. Ours is an advanced thought process, but we have our own pitfalls and we agree that. Hence we don’t go to Saudi Arabia or Europe and say that Islam & Christianity is non-sense, your gods are false gods, why don’t you accept ours? But every other murderous crook who came here from these countries told us exactly that.

Then came his sexist remark, women in Europe are white and beautiful and that is why they wanted to keep them as slaves and women here may not be that beautiful. That is what he implied. Already it has been two hours since the start of this conversation with him. Only after that sexist remark I have decided that I might be wasting my time and offered him for a full day discussion on another day so that I can prove him wrong. He was not ready for that, as he said that he does not have a full day. He is nearly 55 or 60 years old and a Head of a Department in a university, and his ego is badly hurt. In all these hours I have not heard one single sane argument. In addition to the arguments I have explained in this write-up I have quoted many other examples to prove my points, but not discussed here all of them for the sake of time and space.

I have told him that it is certainly true that caste Brahmins have discriminated Dalits, but that should not become the only reason for him to hate India and I also said that “I disagree with your theory that only because of alien invaders we are better off”.  After that we have said goodbye to each other, as the discussion was reaching nowhere.

In conclusion all I would like to say is, that it is tough to help people who fall under the Category1 to come out of their mental prisons in which they are living right now, but it is not entirely impossible, and we should not stop trying. I have had positive results in the past. Just that this time I was stuck with a rigid old bird. 

Encounter with Marxists

Recently I had a conversation with Tarek Fatah, Author of “Chasing the Mirage” a great book which exposes Islamists, who was also briefly joined by his fellow Indian Marxist Irfan Habib – a historian of Romila Thappar’s creed. I know very well that Tarek’s allegiance to Marxism is absolute and there are no two ways about that. What appalled me was there were no convincing answers for the counter arguments posed to him on his attempt to claim Nationalists like Netaji and Shaheed Bhagat Singh as Marxists.

The reason why Tarek stands in different pedal is that he is not an Indian or not living in India at the moment and his focus is not India but to denounce every religion (especially Islam) in his own subtle way, that is not his mistake because that is a standard issue with any Marxist who is thoroughly indoctrinated and goes up to any length to prove that religion is rubbish.

Marx’s take on religion is that, it is used by bourgeoisie to deceive the proletariat. May be I would say “Marx why do not you get a life” now. Let’s see what his views are on religion

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people”

 “The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo”

All this was said based on the history of papal cruelty on Europeans in the name of Christianity and he had no firsthand account of any other religion.

For the millions who perished and are still dying so much for this euphoria called Marxist state did not get justice. Just like Jihadis who are killing and maiming for the establishment of caliphate in the name of Allah.

Two evils that threaten this world at the moment is one Murderous Marxism and the other is Militant Islam. Tarek does what Marx intended to do with religion in abroad with Islam. With so much dark spots which Islam has on its back Tarek’s job of doing Marx on Islam is easy.

But his fellows in India when they take up the job of doing Marx to Hinduism, problem arises. There are not many loop holes to say that the whole Hinduism is rubbish. The Indian Left is currently trying what Islamic Invaders have tried for over 800 years and what Christian invaders tried to do for 200 years, ie., converting this whole country from a Culturally Hindu Majority to 100 % Muslim or 100% Christian.

Both the Abraham religions (Christianity, Islam) have lost their battle with Marxism because when it comes to atrocities they committed on non-believers they are gory. And in this context whatever Marx ranted about religion is more or less true with respect to these two religions. But when it comes to Hinduism which I have already called it a religion of thousand prophets and if I have to explain this to Marxists then Hinduism is a religion of 100,000 Marxists whose thoughts are so great which we can very well see it from the work they have produced and from their teachings too.

All hell broke loose when the moment I have uttered Murderous Marxists. Tarek has no answers for all atrocities committed by Marxists for which millions were killed by Stalin, Lenin and polpot in the name Marxist Garbage, not to mention that China executes thousands of people on an yearly basis in the name of capital punishment. And you will not hear a word from double standard Marxist Intellectuals when it comes to condemning the acts committed by China, simply because China is doing what Marx has prescribed to do.

Violence is at the core of Marxist scheme of things. Let’s not forget what the murderer Mao said “Power flows from the barrel of gun” you don't need to know any further. Violence is in Marxist’s genetic makeup. They do not give a damn about all that, cleansing is their priority which they have done and are still doing it to meet their end objective ie., to turn this world in to a communist state. Though he momentarily chose to call these Marxist killers as goons his stand is that he is a Marxist.

Instead of answering the questions posed he started saying that Bhgat Singh and Netaji too committed Murderous acts or they too are Murderous Marxists. Let’s get this record straight. To call Bhagat Singh and Netaji as Marxists is a lie which the Indian Pseudo-Intellectuals are doing it for a very longtime.

And Tarek’s argument sounded so hollow when he calls Bhagat Singh a Marxist because he happens to be an Atheist. This shows how deep he (and his fellow traveler) is in to this Marxist abyss. Either he does it willingly as a standard Marxist technique taken from the cook book given to him by Karl Marx or he does not know the truth. Atheism is one of the central components of Hinduism. It is possible that you can be an atheist and a Hindu at a same time. But if you are a Marxist you have to be an atheist. 

There is no denial that Shaheed Bhagat singh was inspired by Marxism and he read so much about that, and the limited violence he engaged was to prove his point to colonial oppressors. He did not kill anybody because someone did not agree with Marxism. Did he kill his fellow citizens/human beings because they did not agree with Marxism? But what happened when Bolshevik mobs took over the reins of power in Russia? And what the Murderer Stalin did once he became the ruler of Russia, not to mention Polpot and Cambodia.

It is a blatant lie perpetuated by Marxists especially by the complicit Indian Left when they call Bhagat Singh and Netaji as Marxists, no they are Nationalists by blood. All they did is for the sake of Independence not for the sake of Marxist gibberish. If they have lived on to see what Marxism did to this world they would have called it as the ideology of liars and barbarians. It is convenient to quote a book written by Bhagat Singh called as “why I am an atheist” rather than to acknowledge the truth.

Marxism is a failed Idea. There are umpteen examples throughout the world. If someone shows China and Cuba as success stories they are actually wrong, these are indeed aristocratic states. In an absolute Marxist state anarchy prevails, where supporters will be spared and not the others just like status of non-believers in a caliphate. There used to be days when most of the populace was illiterate they were easily deceived by this Mob called Indian Left with their cohorts in Media and political parties. It is not going to work anymore. While I would have no problem with Tarek and his band doing the Marx to Islam and Islamists, he may not be able to do the same to Bharath, Hindus and Nationalists.

When asked about the Murderous acts committed by Stalin, Lenin and other fellow Marxist travelers. See what they have to say 

Do you see how they divert the question? Thanks to Marxists for making this world a dangerous place to live.